X10+IV vs. Khg?

[jposch]

To start, I'm aware of the Maven, but prefer ph probe style titration for precision...
Current KH guardian user, and while it's worked well for 2 years, and been little fuss, does anyone have experience with the 2 side by side?
My only real gripe with the KHG is the reagent cost. I circumvented that by flashing outdated firmware which does not have provisions for the reagent detection, and use HCL which dropped. Kits from $70/mo. Down to about $2/year.
Doing that, quite a few new features and abilities are lost. Some being customer support, and cloud access. I could do port forwarding and all that, but I haven't felt like it.
The kh guardian has been very accurate and precise, but how does the x10+IV compare? Can one stop automatic firmware updates in case Coralvue decided to start collecting on that subscription model, thus prohibiting diy reagent?

 

[DigitaLSD]

I do not have experience with the KH Guardian. I can say that X10 + iV has been great after all the initial calibrations. It took about 6 weeks to get it to that point, and I test the pH probe monthly with 3 different solutions (4, 7, 10) just to ensure accuracy. Beyond that, bubbles in the Reagent line have kind of been a constant struggle, it's gotten less troublesome over time, but I do find I have to trace the line occasionally to look for any stray bubbles and then flush them out. This is becoming less and less frequent, though (I have had it for ~5 months now). To give you an idea of the cost, I mix up 2L of solution at a time (so 400mL of the reagent), and that lasts me about 2 weeks; at $70/bottle that works out to about $7/week or $28/month. I am sure if I knew how to do it I could easily mix down some HCL and use that instead, I just haven't bothered looking into it since I get 42 tests for $7, which doesn't seem terrible.

My two biggest gripes would be that because it's using the pH probe and port on the Hydros, I am only getting pH and Salinity snapshots every 4 hours as opposed to real-time like I would get if they were in my sump. I don't want to buy another control just to get an additional pH and salinity probe, that makes very little fiscal sense. The second is that it's not accurately keeping track of Reagent usage (apparently, according to my thread in this same forum, it's counting doses twice, so it thinks its using twice the reagent it actually is with regard to the reservoir calculation, it does not affect test results though).

I do not think that DIY reagent will ever be a problem honestly, as long as you're using an acid that is the same strength as the recommended reagent + recommended mixing ratio. The solution the iV uses is 0.02N Concentration Sulfuric Acid (I think). I don't see any reason you cannot sub that for HCL of similar strength (0.02 N Sulfuric = 0.04 N Hydrochloric, I think)...

Hope that helps... sorry I don't have experience with both, I just noticed that your question went unanswered since Monday, so I thought I'd help where I could...

 

[jposch]

I do not have experience with the KH Guardian. I can say that X10 + iV has been great after all the initial calibrations. It took about 6 weeks to get it to that point, and I test the pH probe monthly with 3 different solutions (4, 7, 10) just to ensure accuracy. Beyond that, bubbles in the Reagent line have kind of been a constant struggle, it's gotten less troublesome over time, but I do find I have to trace the line occasionally to look for any stray bubbles and then flush them out. This is becoming less and less frequent, though (I have had it for ~5 months now). To give you an idea of the cost, I mix up 2L of solution at a time (so 400mL of the reagent), and that lasts me about 2 weeks; at $70/bottle that works out to about $7/week or $28/month. I am sure if I knew how to do it I could easily mix down some HCL and use that instead, I just haven't bothered looking into it since I get 42 tests for $7, which doesn't seem terrible.

My two biggest gripes would be that because it's using the pH probe and port on the Hydros, I am only getting pH and Salinity snapshots every 4 hours as opposed to real-time like I would get if they were in my sump. I don't want to buy another control just to get an additional pH and salinity probe, that makes very little fiscal sense. The second is that it's not accurately keeping track of Reagent usage (apparently, according to my thread in this same forum, it's counting doses twice, so it thinks its using twice the reagent it actually is with regard to the reservoir calculation, it does not affect test results though).

I do not think that DIY reagent will ever be a problem honestly, as long as you're using an acid that is the same strength as the recommended reagent + recommended mixing ratio. The solution the iV uses is 0.02N Concentration Sulfuric Acid (I think). I don't see any reason you cannot sub that for HCL of similar strength (0.02 N Sulfuric = 0.04 N Hydrochloric, I think)...

Hope that helps... sorry I don't have experience with both, I just noticed that your question went unanswered since Monday, so I thought I'd help where I could...

I appreciate it. So, the khg uses a sensor and a special secret dye to detect the non-oem acid.
Other benefits are a float switch to avoid overflowing, that same sensor for authentication measures the droplet size and offeres unparalleled precision. And, it's been nearly flawless for 2.5yrs.

Others, like kamoer, are adopting a QR code type method.

I think I solved my khg issues now, so I'll give it a couple weeks to see. If so, I guess this thread is pointless (for me) and I'll buy additional KHG for the other 2 tank systems. Likely go with a basic Hydros collective to consolidate data into one place.
I was like kamoer. But. The data transfer isn't local via a cable. That's a no-go for me. Servers go down, get shut down, etc.

Also. This post was only just approved this morning.

 

[DigitaLSD]

I appreciate it. So, the khg uses a sensor and a special secret dye to detect the non-oem acid.
Other benefits are a float switch to avoid overflowing, that same sensor for authentication measures the droplet size and offeres unparalleled precision. And, it's been nearly flawless for 2.5yrs.

Others, like kamoer, are adopting a QR code type method.

I think I solved my khg issues now, so I'll give it a couple weeks to see. If so, I guess this thread is pointless (for me) and I'll buy additional KHG for the other 2 tank systems. Likely go with a basic Hydros collective to consolidate data into one place.
I was like kamoer. But. The data transfer isn't local via a cable. That's a no-go for me. Servers go down, get shut down, etc.

Also. This post was only just approved this morning.

The iV uses a pH probe as the detection method, not a photometer or anything like that... It would be hard pressed for CoralVue to figure out a way to mess with that. It's a straight up pH Titration test that currently uses Sulfuric Acid to test. That's changing in the Maven apparently, as they're using a Hanna-style test for that machine apparently... But the iV, as long as you figured out how to dilute to the same strength you'll be finw

 

[jposch]

The iV uses a pH probe as the detection method, not a photometer or anything like that... It would be hard pressed for CoralVue to figure out a way to mess with that. It's a straight up pH Titration test that currently uses Sulfuric Acid to test. That's changing in the Maven apparently, as they're using a Hanna-style test for that machine apparently... But the iV, as long as you figured out how to dilute to the same strength you'll be finw

Well, it's super simple to require your to scan a uniquine QR code on refilling reagent, and then shut down after the approximate duration that the reagent should last. I'm not saying it will happen, but pointing out that it is such a simple thing to implement. I did get my KHG figured out, and bypassing all that BS, so now I need to decide what to do with a hydros system. Pretty stupid expensive to buy 2 launches, or 2 x10, or a combo to have 2 pH ports. (One for khg alk, one for just tank pH.) I like real time pH, so I'd want a 2nd probe if I did use the x10 anyhow. Atlas scientific does have a pH to 0-10v module, but that's diy I don't feel like dealing with, and honestly, don't think one should have to. Then there is the salinity probe... I already have dosers, so the x10 would be such a waste of money, so that leaves the launch. Again. Only 1 pH probe. $550 just to get a 2nd pH probe..? Really not "on brand" with being affordable and accessible, IMO.

 

[thom_smith]

To start, I'm aware of the Maven, but prefer ph probe style titration for precision...
Current KH guardian user, and while it's worked well for 2 years, and been little fuss, does anyone have experience with the 2 side by side?
My only real gripe with the KHG is the reagent cost. I circumvented that by flashing outdated firmware which does not have provisions for the reagent detection, and use HCL which dropped. Kits from $70/mo. Down to about $2/year.
Doing that, quite a few new features and abilities are lost. Some being customer support, and cloud access. I could do port forwarding and all that, but I haven't felt like it.
The kh guardian has been very accurate and precise, but how does the x10+IV compare? Can one stop automatic firmware updates in case Coralvue decided to start collecting on that subscription model, thus prohibiting diy reagent?

Does the KH Guardian have a BNC output with the ability to export its test results? If so, I'd say to you don't fix something that isn't broke. Get yourself a X4 Pro Pack for less than the cost of X10. Great starting point with a good variety of most port types. Grab a bnc cable and go from the KHG to Hydros probe port and ingest your alkalinity results. The X4 Pro Pack would give you the ability and sufficient ports to actually manage and control your tank. Your kHG cloud access and port forwarding issues are also mitigated. As in no longer needed.

X10 works well. There is a bit of a learning curve getting everything calibrated and primed. Before the recent Minnow, Launch and Maven, X10 was the hot new control. Many people held out for X10 when they probably would have been better served with X3 or X4 Pro Pack. X10 in my opinion is NOT a starter device. Much like KHG, it is an advanced control for more experienced reefers with higher demand--often SPS dominant--tanks. Many who should have gone a different direction figured they needed the "newest and best" control. X10 gets a bad rap because a lot of new inexperienced people--not an all-encompassing statement but many--got an advanced control. @DigitaLSD mentions the shortfalls of 4 hour pH snapshots. Not to be confrontational, but I'd imply he probably isn't running a calcium reactor and not running kalk if there is no real-time pH probe in-tank. If not doing either, there's really no reason to be testing alkalinity every four hours. Maybe would have better served with Pro Pack or the new Launch?

X10 is rock solid. An advanced control. A bit of learning curve. A bit of maintenance. But have to ask youraelf does it do something you don"t get today? Can you export the resultts? BTW, would think it highly unlikely they change firmware and goto subscription model. That'd be a heavy uplift which abandons nore than a fair number of users. You could disavle updates if you want. But that'd disable any new features also.

 

[DigitaLSD]

Does the KH Guardian have a BNC output with the ability to export its test results? If so, I'd say to you don't fix something that isn't broke. Get yourself a X4 Pro Pack for less than the cost of X10. Great starting point with a good variety of most port types. Grab a bnc cable and go from the KHG to Hydros probe port and ingest your alkalinity results. The X4 Pro Pack would give you the ability and sufficient ports to actually manage and control your tank. Your kHG cloud access and port forwarding issues are also mitigated. As in no longer needed.

X10 works well. There is a bit of a learning curve getting everything calibrated and primed. Before the recent Minnow, Launch and Maven, X10 was the hot new control. Many people held out for X10 when they probably would have been better served with X3 or X4 Pro Pack. X10 in my opinion is NOT a starter device. Much like KHG, it is an advanced control for more experienced reefers with higher demand--often SPS dominant--tanks. Many who should have gone a different direction figured they needed the "newest and best" control. X10 gets a bad rap because a lot of new inexperienced people--not an all-encompassing statement but many--got an advanced control. @DigitaLSD mentions the shortfalls of 4 hour pH snapshots. Not to be confrontational, but I'd imply he probably isn't running a calcium reactor and not running kalk if there is no real-time pH probe in-tank. If not doing either, there's really no reason to be testing alkalinity every four hours. Maybe would have better served with Pro Pack or the new Launch?

X10 is rock solid. An advanced control. A bit of learning curve. A bit of maintenance. But have to ask youraelf does it do something you don"t get today? Can you export the resultts? BTW, would think it highly unlikely they change firmware and goto subscription model. That'd be a heavy uplift which abandons nore than a fair number of users. You could disavle updates if you want. But that'd disable any new features also.

Your assumption is wrong; I am clearly running a Kalk reactor, and we've (You and I) discussed this (can't use the spare dosing head as the pump for the Kalk reactor in the Kalk reactor setup) already. I don't even know why you decided to tag me in this, it's not like I have said anything above that contradicts anything of what you said. The Control x10 is more than capable of being a standalone controller; it doesn't need to be in a collective if you have a use case for it. My use case was for automated testing of Alk, temperature monitoring (InkBird does temp control), and a Skimmer cup sensor. It does what I need it to, I just wish that it had an additional pH probe port on it so that it could perform both the pH task AND the Alk task independently without having to buy an additional controller...

 

[DigitaLSD]

Well, it's super simple to require your to scan a uniquine QR code on refilling reagent, and then shut down after the approximate duration that the reagent should last. I'm not saying it will happen, but pointing out that it is such a simple thing to implement.

Sure, it also becomes much more cumbersome for them.

Pretty stupid expensive to buy 2 launches, or 2 x10, or a combo to have 2 pH ports. (One for khg alk, one for just tank pH.) I like real time pH, so I'd want a 2nd probe if I did use the x10 anyhow.

Yep, that was my gripe as well, since one is being used for the iV, and the X10 + iV are symbiotic in nature, they should either have a way for pH to be tested more frequently (every 5 minutes) or they should include a second pH probe port on the X10 so that we can use the same controller for both the iV and real-time monitoring of pH in sump.

Atlas scientific does have a pH to 0-10v module, but that's diy I don't feel like dealing with, and honestly, don't think one should have to. Then there is the salinity probe... I already have dosers, so the x10 would be such a waste of money, so that leaves the launch. Again. Only 1 pH probe. $550 just to get a 2nd pH probe..? Really not "on brand" with being affordable and accessible, IMO.

Yeh, having 2 pH probe ports on at least one of their devices should be simple. Or, create a low-cost add-on that offers a pH probe port that is powered by the Command Bus. Seems like it would be simple, easy, cheap and a no brainer...

 

[jposch]

Does the KH Guardian have a BNC output with the ability to export its test results? If so, I'd say to you don't fix something that isn't broke.

It does. It was acting up last week, but I've so far seemed to have resolved that.

Get yourself a X4 Pro Pack for less than the cost of X10. Great starting point with a good variety of most port types. Grab a bnc cable and go from the KHG to Hydros probe port and ingest your alkalinity results.

Khg doesn't accurately send tank pH data. Only alk.
The X4 Pro Pack would give you the ability and sufficient ports to actually manage and control your tank.

I have little desire to add more points of failure to things that are working. And have been for years. Monitoring only.
Your kHG cloud access and port forwarding issues are also mitigated. As in no longer needed.

X10 works well. There is a bit of a learning curve getting everything calibrated and primed. Before the recent Minnow, Launch and Maven, X10 was the hot new control. Many people held out for X10 when they probably would have been better served with X3 or X4 Pro Pack. X10 in my opinion is NOT a starter device. Much like KHG, it is an advanced control for more experienced reefers with higher demand--often SPS dominant--tanks. Many who should have gone a different direction figured they needed the "newest and best" control. X10 gets a bad rap because a lot of new inexperienced people--not an all-encompassing statement but many--got an advanced control. @DigitaLSD mentions the shortfalls of 4 hour pH snapshots. Not to be confrontational, but I'd imply he probably isn't running a calcium reactor and not running kalk if there is no real-time pH probe in-tank. If not doing either, there's really no reason to be testing alkalinity every four hours. Maybe would have better served with Pro Pack or the new Launch?

I dose 2 part (lye and soda ash) as well as have a 60gal barrel of kalk (slurry is a crock)

X10 is rock solid. An advanced control. A bit of learning curve. A bit of maintenance. But have to ask youraelf does it do something you don"t get today? Can you export the resultts? BTW, would think it highly unlikely they change firmware and goto subscription model. That'd be a heavy uplift which abandons nore than a fair number of users.

Its still possible. Probably still possible with the khg too. But, all updates are done manually by the user.

You may have assumed that new to this forum meant new to reef keeping. This tank uses up to 5.5dkh/day and nearly 1ppm po4/day (yes, coral uses phosphate) in the summer when the temperature hits 84F and the pH exceeds 8.6. Such a wild ride leaves me chained to the house having to look at everything and monitor trends to be able to catch things before they become a disaster.
The only real control I'd be interested in would be to cycle a couple fans and cut power to lights as a sort of "E-stop" when things get out of hand.

 

[jposch]

Sure, it also becomes much more cumbersome for them.

Yep, that was my gripe as well, since one is being used for the iV, and the X10 + iV are symbiotic in nature, they should either have a way for pH to be tested more frequently (every 5 minutes) or they should include a second pH probe port on the X10 so that we can use the same controller for both the iV and real-time monitoring of pH in sump.

Yeh, having 2 pH probe ports on at least one of their devices should be simple. Or, create a low-cost add-on that offers a pH probe port that is powered by the Command Bus. Seems like it would be simple, easy, cheap and a no brainer...

I do agree a pH port module should be simple to add and would be an excellent product. Not every little thing needs a brain. Especially not a module that plugs into commond bus and just accepts data from a pH probe. I'm certain one could diy for less than $100, and coralvue could easily match that price point.