BRS Titanium heater causing Ph probe interference

[Christian]

Hi all new to this forum and I’m having a problem maybe someone already has had and fixed. I have a Redsea nano xl with a Hydros launch running on it I have a ph probe, salinity and temperature. I recently replaced my crappy flu al glass water heater with a “higher end” bulk reef supply titanium water heater I have the probes on the first chamber where the ato+ is installed, the heater is in the middle chamber where the skimmer is at,and had no problems until after I switched heaters. After installing the brs heater my ph jumps anywhere from 1 to 1.8 up. I got a replacement thinking it was a faulty heater but replacement doing exactly the same anyone have a solution

 

[thom_smith]

Hi all new to this forum and I’m having a problem maybe someone already has had and fixed. I have a Redsea nano xl with a Hydros launch running on it I have a ph probe, salinity and temperature. I recently replaced my crappy flu al glass water heater with a “higher end” bulk reef supply titanium water heater I have the probes on the first chamber where the ato+ is installed, the heater is in the middle chamber where the skimmer is at,and had no problems until after I switched heaters. After installing the brs heater my ph jumps anywhere from 1 to 1.8 up. I got a replacement thinking it was a faulty heater but replacement doing exactly the same anyone have a solution

Try rerouting your pH probe cable so it isn't adjacent to the heater power cord.

 

[Christian]

Try rerouting your pH probe cable so it isn't adjacent to the heater power cord.

Unfortunately it’s not near there’s some sort of interference generated by this model of titanium heater I ordered a grounding probe for the aquarium to see if that helps

 

[Christian]

I was able to isolate the issue, the problem is not interference caused by the heater but more so the heater or any titanium element in the water. As soon as I take the heater out the readings go back to normal, but if I put a titanium grounding probe inside the water the readings go crazy again, this does not sound normal could the probe be faulty?

 

[Danny]

The leak could be in another piece of equipment that is causing the issue and the heater or ground probe become the ground source for it. The best way I know would be to disconnect everything except the pH probe and ground probe and make sure the reading is ok. Then start hooking things back up one at a time until the problem starts. Then the last thing hooked up would be your cause or one of the causes. Unhook it again and then continue hooking the rest up one at a time until all except any causing the issue are hooked back up.

 

[JBNY2]

Unfortunately I don’t think you are going to be able to do anything about it. I have the same thing happen when I run my UV Sterilizer. I contacted support and was told there is nothing they can do. I have an Apex that I still use for DOS as I am moving over to Hydros. So I plugged the pH probe into the head unit and it worked just fine. So I think the probe port on the Hydros are not galvanically isolated and they easily pickup noise.

 

[Danny]

Unfortunately I don’t think you are going to be able to do anything about it. I have the same thing happen when I run my UV Sterilizer. I contacted support and was told there is nothing they can do. I have an Apex that I still use for DOS as I am moving over to Hydros. So I plugged the pH probe into the head unit and it worked just fine. So I think the probe port on the Hydros are not galvanically isolated and they easily pickup noise.

Hydros does have galvanic isolation on their pH ports. So the issue you have may be that you have power carrying cables too close to the sensor cables. In this case the pH cable. Signals can be magnetically coupled between cables. On a pH probe a millivolt of change can cause a large change in the reading. Make sure the cables for pH are separated from the other cables. To test if it is an issue with some piece of equipment in the water like your UV try placing the probe in a cup or other container with tank water isolated from the actual tank water with the UV on and see if it reads correctly.

 

[Frank Li]

This is easily fixed @Christian , no need to try and play the isolation game and has nothing to do with transient interference from nearby wires or how the Atlas Scientific pH module works.

The problem is the way power supply is setup for the Hydros controller, unfortunately the controllers ground, AC earth and tank water are isolated from one another, when you add the heater element it has the outside case connected to earth for safety. Unfortunately this means there is now an alternative path to "ground" (earth in this case) that changes the reference "ground" for the pH probe. This can be made worse from devices like Salinity and ORP probes as well one of the newest sources of interference being the conductivity sensor in roller mats use to detect the water level.

It can be easily remedied in a couple of ways, the simplest is to add a grounding probe to your sump somewhere near the pH probe (underwater obviously), and connect this grounding probe wire to the ground (negative) on the controller the pH probe is connected too (you can use any ground point on the controller, including a sense/sensor/IO/power port). Just remember to recalibrate you probes after connecting the ground reference.

This will resolve your problem assuming you don't have any devices with the L & N connected the wrong way around internally (like in some cheap usb charges). All saltwater tanks should have a grounding probe connected to the Earth on an AC socket for safety, you can also connect this same probe to your ground on your controller for simplicity.

 

[JBNY2]

I'm not the OP but I will try these ideas to see if I can fix my ph probe interference issues. I tried Danny's suggestion and isolated as much as I could from the power cable, and that did bring the interference down a bit but it still very off. I will try the grounding probe trick and see if that does anything and report back.

 

[JBNY2]

This is easily fixed @Christian , no need to try and play the isolation game and has nothing to do with transient interference from nearby wires or how the Atlas Scientific pH module works.

The problem is the way power supply is setup for the Hydros controller, unfortunately the controllers ground, AC earth and tank water are isolated from one another, when you add the heater element it has the outside case connected to earth for safety. Unfortunately this means there is now an alternative path to "ground" (earth in this case) that changes the reference "ground" for the pH probe. This can be made worse from devices like Salinity and ORP probes as well one of the newest sources of interference being the conductivity sensor in roller mats use to detect the water level.

It can be easily remedied in a couple of ways, the simplest is to add a grounding probe to your sump somewhere near the pH probe (underwater obviously), and connect this grounding probe wire to the ground (negative) on the controller the pH probe is connected too (you can use any ground point on the controller, including a sense/sensor/IO/power port). Just remember to recalibrate you probes after connecting the ground reference.

This will resolve your problem assuming you don't have any devices with the L & N connected the wrong way around internally (like in some cheap usb charges). All saltwater tanks should have a grounding probe connected to the Earth on an AC socket for safety, you can also connect this same probe to your ground on your controller for simplicity.

Grounding probe hooked up like you suggested fixed the problem immediately. Thanks for the help.

 

[M3travis]

Grounding probe hooked up like you suggested fixed the problem immediately. Thanks for the help.

Mind sharing the grounding probe you purchased?

 

[JBNY2]

Submersible Titanium Grounding Probe​

2-Pack -... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GUFNJZQ

 

[Frank Li]

Mind sharing the grounding probe you purchased?

You are better off purchasing a pure titanium welding filler rod that is long enough to reach the top of your sump/tank. This way you can attach a wire to the top of the rod with a crimp or connector (I use a gold plated 4mm bullet connector crimped onto the rod myself) and keep the copper or aluminium wire connected to it out of the tank completely (most hobby ground ground probes start to leach after a while due to the plastic seal against the titanium failing)). Remember you really want to put a ground in to the earth of your mains AC, and also have it connected to the negative side of your controller be it by the same probe 2 wires, or 2 separate probes.

 

[KenS]

This is easily fixed @Christian , no need to try and play the isolation game and has nothing to do with transient interference from nearby wires or how the Atlas Scientific pH module works.

The problem is the way power supply is setup for the Hydros controller, unfortunately the controllers ground, AC earth and tank water are isolated from one another, when you add the heater element it has the outside case connected to earth for safety. Unfortunately this means there is now an alternative path to "ground" (earth in this case) that changes the reference "ground" for the pH probe. This can be made worse from devices like Salinity and ORP probes as well one of the newest sources of interference being the conductivity sensor in roller mats use to detect the water level.

It can be easily remedied in a couple of ways, the simplest is to add a grounding probe to your sump somewhere near the pH probe (underwater obviously), and connect this grounding probe wire to the ground (negative) on the controller the pH probe is connected too (you can use any ground point on the controller, including a sense/sensor/IO/power port). Just remember to recalibrate you probes after connecting the ground reference.

This will resolve your problem assuming you don't have any devices with the L & N connected the wrong way around internally (like in some cheap usb charges). All saltwater tanks should have a grounding probe connected to the Earth on an AC socket for safety, you can also connect this same probe to your ground on your controller for simplicity.

HI Frank, Would you please explain in a bit more detail how & where to attach the grounding probe wire? Where specifically does the other side of the grounding probe attach to the Hydros controller? I have the 2 pack ground probe linked earlier in this thread. I have two ground probes, one on either side of my sump. One is plugged directly into a receptacle. The other is plugged into a Tripp Lite Isobars surge protector that my Kraken is plugged into. I have 4 separate circuits run to my sump room directly from the panel to run various equipment. Two 600 watt titanium heaters, two Sicce sdc7.0 return pumps, 57 watt Uv, one Varios 4S skimmer pump. Four probes total, 2 ph, one orp, 1 salinity. Surprisingly, the salinity probe is completely uneffected. But when the UV & Varios pumps are running, the ph probes read 8.7-9.0 (which is ludicrous high) & orp read -35. As soon as I hit Phyto Dose Mode which kills the skimmer & UV for 4 hours, readings are normal (ph 8.0-8.2 / orp floats low to mid 300s). I've done a lot of reading, tried some strategically place ferrite cores, rerouting wires, moving power supplies around, no luck. I've just resigned myself to only being able to take ph/orp reading during Phyto mode, but I'd love to eliminate issue completely. I have several Hydros modules (Kraken, Wave Engine, X4, XP8, Soles dosing 2-part. Does a ground need to be run to each?
Thanks so much!
Ken

 

[Frank Li]

HI Frank, Would you please explain in a bit more detail how & where to attach the grounding probe wire? Where specifically does the other side of the grounding probe attach to the Hydros controller?

Hey Ken,

First you will need to decide where is the easiest place to get a ground from/to on your Hydros controllers. Ideally you want to come in at the controller with the majority of the probes or in the centre of your wire nest.....I mean hydros collective (i.e. you have 8 controllers with a bunch of probes on different ones, then try to choose a controller that is 3 or 4 bus connections deep). As mentioned, one of the easiest places is the ground on a sense port as it is not switched, meaning you will always have the electronics "ground reference" available via it. If you have a spare sense port then you just need a spare 4pin GX12 connector and then cut the plug off the ground probe you bought and solder it to the ground pin on the GX12 connector and plug it in. Bingo bango you did a thing There are other places you can get a ground from, I/O ports, the power supply, spare probe port etc, you can of course add it to an existing sense port connector as long as you are happy with 2 things wired together (good way to frustrate yourself later on). You should also add a second ground probe that is plugged into the power socket that is powering the fishtank or at least the socket kraken is plugged into (yes you can use the one probe with 2 wires).

It is also worth noting the salinity probe isn't very accurate, even when placed into a purpose built isolated pressure line for it (so liquid is flowing out of the little holes in the top of the probe) it still is wildly inaccurate, or should I say it often will not see multiple PPT of salinity change due to regular dosing. I wish they would drop the 2 point calibration as 28ppt is not a standard any where in the world for EC meters, and and EC meters' only have single point calibration, there is no logarithmic curve in measurement of electrical conductivity so why the 2 point calibration with a standard you can't get...???

A little side advice, leave your UV's on at all times, running a few hours a day with them off will be building a film quickly on the sleeve that then gets baked on once you turn them back on rendering them pretty useless rather quickly (the UV has no impact on how nutritious the phyto is or what will eat it after getting some rays). It also sounds like you are fully DC aside from the titanium "like" death traps, do yourself a favour and ditch the last of the equipment with mains AC in the water. The "titanium" heaters are full of aluminium, vanadium and molybdenum to be able to make it into a sleeve to take the ceramic heater core. Not only does this leech into the tank, the heater core and titanium expand and contract at wildly different rates which guarantees they will fail and leak, this is why the manufactures of them recommend yearly replacement. You just need to purchase a sealed reptile heating mat (or multiple) to go under your sump, no more AC in the tank and a much faster and more accurate way to heat your water. Got a big system or an odd size, just use underfloor heating film and a PID controller.

 

[KenS]

Thanks for this, Frank!

So, I find the connectors (hopefully on Amazon), find the Sense cable ground pin on X4, cut the ground rod wire, connect only that pin & plug it into an open sense port on the X4 (ph & orp) & that will do the trick?

Can I do the same on X10 (ph & salinity) and run both to a single ground rod that sits in the sump? Or does each Hydros module need it's own ground rod in the sump?

Great idea about heating the floor under the sump! Wish I had thought of that! I am a tile contractor & my guys install heated floors all the time, almost every job. It's all the rage right now. My sump is plumbed through the wall sitting on a 6" tall platform behind the wall. I could have easily heated that floor, but it's too late now.

Surprisingly, my salinity probe is very accurate. When I try to calibrate it with Hydros fluid or any brand of fluid, it's a complete mess. Drifts up & down constantly. I just keep calibration cleared & calibrate it off of my TM glass hydrometer in a 5000ml graduated cylinder. I check it against that at least twice a week. I've also checked the TM hydrometer with Randy Holmes-Farley's DIY standard & it's dead nuts perfect. So I don't even bother calibrating Hydros salinity probe. It's just there to warn me something is amiss, basically just an alarm. My TM glass hydrometer is how I keep a closer eye on salinity.

Thanks again!

 

[Frank Li]

Thanks for this, Frank!

So, I find the connectors (hopefully on Amazon), find the Sense cable ground pin on X4, cut the ground rod wire, connect only that pin & plug it into an open sense port on the X4 (ph & orp) & that will do the trick?

You got it.

Can I do the same on X10 (ph & salinity) and run both to a single ground rod that sits in the sump? Or does each Hydros module need it's own ground rod in the sump?

You only need the one ground probe for the ground reference if all the probes are in the sump and connected via a powered bus line, as the ground will be shared through the 24V bus ground source. There is however one point to make about this though, if you have 2 pH probes in the sump together (so you can watch for probe drift or failure), then you want the ground probe connection as close to these 2 probe connections as possible at the controller, otherwise you might see a 0.01-0.02 difference between the probes if you have a lot of load on the 24V bus, or long wires between where the ground is plugged in and the probe connections (say like a 8ft tank with and X4 on either end with a pH probe plugger into each one and ground plugged into one end). In this case you can always just add another ground probe.

Great idea about heating the floor under the sump! Wish I had thought of that! I am a tile contractor & my guys install heated floors all the time, almost every job. It's all the rage right now. My sump is plumbed through the wall sitting on a 6" tall platform behind the wall. I could have easily heated that floor, but it's too late now.

Ask your floor guys about the stick on stuff, then just apply it to the side, doesn't even have to stay below the water line (better if it does though), then a layer of 5mm EVA foam stuck on top to insulate and you good to go. Just don't use a mechanical relay to turn it on and off like in a XP8, use a PID controller on a solid state relay.

Surprisingly, my salinity probe is very accurate. When I try to calibrate it with Hydros fluid or any brand of fluid, it's a complete mess. Drifts up & down constantly. I just keep calibration cleared & calibrate it off of my TM glass hydrometer in a 5000ml graduated cylinder. I check it against that at least twice a week. I've also checked the TM hydrometer with Randy Holmes-Farley's DIY standard & it's dead nuts perfect. So I don't even bother calibrating Hydros salinity probe. It's just there to warn me something is amiss, basically just an alarm. My TM glass hydrometer is how I keep a closer eye on salinity.

Unfortunately it is just an EC meter, so it does not read salinity at all, just a guesstimate from the conductivity. As an EC meter has no actual calibration you just set the offset point to make up for tiny variances in manufacturing and wire resistance, but they should read near 100% perfect EC measurements right out of the box no calibration ever needed. When you leave it completely "uncalibrated" is way out, like nearly double what it should be and this is further messed up by the dual points Coralvue decided to put in. It should just have an unlimited setpoint adjustment and you simply change this point to match the reading you want against a known sample. The problem is not so much it reading accurately after calibration at the standard 35ppt, it is the fact it can't see the actual salinity change over time, as it is also reading the conductivity of other elements and compounds in the water and not just the salt you are trying to measure. Many of the products we dose into the tank are forms of salts that substantially alter the EC reading. So its nice to have a "number" on the display for salinity, but it can't actually be used to control anything realistically. I use to use it to determine if RO or saltwater is is being added for water top off due to automated testing and stealing water from the display tank for w/c brineshrimp, but it is way too unreliable for even something as simple as this.

The funny thing is, changing the probe for a 1K and using it in freshwater it is really accurate, the problem is coralvue limit the EC's usage to above 20ms/cm (~20ppt) making the probe useless again, even though they have the probe in the drop down list and advertise it for freshwater..... And unfortunately the requests to lift the 20ms/cm limit on the conductivity probe has fallen on deaf ears it seems. If only a floating hydrometer could be easily digitised and account for altitude and gravity at your location.......