Output on Fallback?

[Carlos]

We at HYDROS spend a lot of time reviewing social media comments to spot issues before they happen. We have noticed that a large number of users are misconfiguring outputs. An example is a Heater output. We saw many users creating the output but not declaring a temperature sensor. This begs the question: How is the HYDROS controller supposed to know when to turn the heater element on or off if it does not have a temperature sensor? If the output is ON, it will keep the Heater on forever as it does not know when it should turn off the heating element.

For this reason, the latest firmware and app updates started enforcing better configuration practices. For example, HYDROS will not allow you to run a Heater or ATO pump output that does not have an input selected. This is another way for HYDROS to help users create a safe environment for their aquariums.

If you are having issues with some outputs going into the "Fallback" state for an unknown reason, check the following:

• Does your output have a declared input?
• Did you select an input when you configured the output?

For example, if you are creating a "Heater" output, you must select at least one temperature sensor. If you do not, the output will revert to Fallback. If you want to create an output to run your InkBird controller and do not have a HYDROS temperature sensor, use a "Constant."

The same applies to an ATO. Are you using a stand-alone (non-hydros) ATO? If so, use a "Constant" output instead. Using the ATO output requires at least one water sensor input. The HYDROS cannot reliably turn the ATO output on or off if it does not know the water level.

 

[Jeffbear]

Thank you Carlos!

 

[Corey]

I have a concern about the latest version 286 release. I’ve noticed that there seems to be an issue when the output is a heater. Multiple times the controller has shut off my main heater and does not turn it back on even when the off threshold has not been hit. This also occurs with my backup heater, it never will turn on even if the temperature drops below the desired temperature. This morning I woke up to my tank’s temperature being 73 degrees. I’ve tried a number of troubleshooting things but the only thing that resolves the issue is reverting the version back to 281. I’ve never had an issue like this until updating to 286. I do have an input temperature selected as the input device for both the main heater and the backup heater.

 

[Corey]

Carlos is awesome, contacted me right away and identified my issue. I had my temperature configured incorrectly. I figured I was doing something wrong but didn’t see the issue

 

[Carlos]

The problem is your configuration. You have the heater turning ON not until the tank's temperature is below 44.6. Then, it will stay on until the temperature reaches 83 when it turns off. After that, it will remain OFF until the temperature dips below 44.6 to turn back on.

The problem you have has nothing to do with the firmware. You will have the same issue with any firmware you install.

Most folks keep that temperature range very tight. For example, I keep the heater output temperature range between 78 and 78.5, so my tank's temperature stays within that half-degree range.

The suggested setting will use the HYDROS as your primary controller and make the integrated thermostat a backup. I recommend you set the backup thermostat to something like 80 degrees.

 

[Tori]

I think this may be my issue. Can you tell me why my ATO is saying off fallback? It has an input declared. Also all my outputs stopped responding after this update. Inputs seem to be working fine but all outputs and WiFi devices are not responding.

 

[Danny]

Is it connected to a drive port?

 

[Tori]

Hi Danny. Thanks so much for the reply. Yes the ATO is connected to the drive port.

 

[Tori]

Can you see any reason why my return pump would go into fallback mode? Even though the return pump was staying on when all my out puts were showing up red it unfortunately when into fallback mode for most of the night while I was sleeping. Haven't been able to asses the damage yet since the lights are still out but hoping it's minimal. I don't think the return pump should need an input declared. It has an option for a leak sensor but I don't have one so it's set to unused. I'm at least able to force it on for now.

 

[Danny]

It is powered by a wifi power strip where communications is losts. It also depends on a feeder which is also a wifi device without any communications. If all the wifi devices are having the issue at once then I would think it was something common. That would be either the router or controller if you just have one controller. If you have a collective you can make a different controller the preferred wifi master and that would eliminate the controller if the issue still exist. If starts working leave that controller as the preferred to see if it happens again with a different controller as the wifi master. If it does then the issue would be the router. I doubt 2 controllers would have the same issue.

 

[thom_smith]

ATO is in Fallback because of your Return Pump which is NOT RESPONDING. Have you tried resetting your router/wifi? The vast majority of time this solves the issue.

 

[thom_smith]

Looks like you may have reset your wifi and restored most connectivity. Feeder is still down though. And now your Return Pump is in Fallback because your Feeder is NOT RESPONDING. Maybe try to power reset the feeder itself. If that doesn't work, try to re-pair it.

 

[Danny]

Can you see any reason why my return pump would go into fallback mode? Even though the return pump was staying on when all my out puts were showing up red it unfortunately when into fallback mode for most of the night while I was sleeping. Haven't been able to asses the damage yet since the lights are still out but hoping it's minimal. I don't think the return pump should need an input declared. It has an option for a leak sensor but I don't have one so it's set to unused. I'm at least able to force it on for now.
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You may want to setup a separate output to use to start your feed mode that is triggered by the wifi feeder. I do this and that would keep the return pump on if the feeder becomes unavailable. I have a couple of screenshots of that output on my system. I set the minimum on time for 30 minutes so that is my feed mode time. The feeder is on input and it is not inverted. I have a seconds input but that is not needed I added it so if I wanted to disable the feed mode for any reason All I have to do is turn on that second output since it is inverted here it make it active when off. Since I have 2 inputs I set the combiner mode to AND so both need to be active for the output to turn on. Then you can use this output on you return pump in the depends on setting instead of the wifi feeder. Also if you added a minimum off time on the return output for the feed time you would need to remove that so the return comes back on when this output goes off after 30 minutes. If you notice the dependency on this is to turn off if there is no communication with the wifi feeder so that is the same as no feed mode. The worst thing that could happen is the return stay on when the feeder runs but that should not happen if there is no communication since the Hydros has to trigger the feeder for it to run.

 

[Tori]

Thanks guys for the feedback! I really appreciate the responses. I'll have to try this when I get home from work. Unfortunately this came up at a time when I'm doing 12 hours or more but hopefully I can can find a way to make it back earlier today.

 

[Tori]

Finally home from work and mostly everything worked. The auto feeder went back to normal after unplugging and reconnecting it. Weirdly the single strip is still not responding though. I unplugged it and even replaced the WiFi device and re-set it up which normally works. Whelp, while I was writing that I thought I'd try resetting the control 4 to see if that would fix it and now most things are red and not responding again... First screenshot is from the short happy times I enjoyed and the second is my very swi return to depression. Not sure what's causing this but I'll try resetting the WiFi several times again. At least nothing is in fallback so I think I understand how that works now. I threw in a few pictures of the tank and some of the happy inhabitants to cheer this post up a bit.

 

[thom_smith]

Finally home from work and mostly everything worked. The auto feeder went back to normal after unplugging and reconnecting it. Weirdly the single strip is still not responding though. I unplugged it and even replaced the WiFi device and re-set it up which normally works. Whelp, while I was writing that I thought I'd try resetting the control 4 to see if that would fix it and now most things are red and not responding again... First screenshot is from the short happy times I enjoyed and the second is my very swi return to depression. Not sure what's causing this but I'll try resetting the WiFi several times again. At least nothing is in fallback so I think I understand how that works now. I threw in a few pictures of the tank and some of the happy inhabitants to cheer this post up a bit.

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Let's take a few moments to explain how wifi accessories work because understanding that helps explain many of the issues you've mentioned here. Fist, feeders, plugs and strips have zero capability to hold config or make any on/off decisions on their own. They rely solely on the Hydros control or, in the case of a multi-control collective, the collective master. The feeders, plugs and strips do not communicate with the Hydros cloud and ONLY communicate with the collective master. The collective master is depicted on the status screen with a symbol to the right of the control name. See my example below.



So when you reset the X4 recently, it appears that was the collective master. Upon reset, a new master is negotiated and normally the wifi devices reconnect within a couple minutes. Other Hydros controls aren't impacted as their control to control communications take place over the command bus. Unsure what the issue was that prompted reset of X4 but we can probably assist with that if you explain further.

Now for the FALLBACK issue... If you have outputs which depend on another output which is not responding then they will go into fallback mode. Then may fallback off or fallback on depending upon config. This is determined by the If Input / Dependency Unavailable setting below the output config. If Turn On, then your output will Fallback ON. If Turn Off, then your output will fallback off.



Your desired fallback in this case is probably on as it is desirable to maintain circulation and oxygenation and there is little harm in leaving the pump on even iff the feeder isn't responding. Just keep in mind the fallback impacts both inputs and depends. So if, for instance this output were a heater and the input sensor were disxonnected or faulty then your decision may be different. There is no right config for the if input / depends unavailable setting. It is per use case depending upon each individual configuration.

 

[Tori]

Thanks for the super thorough explanations! The new fallback feature wasn't too kind to me but I think I fully understand how it works now. I don't think the Input/Dependency Unavailable setting is available for return pumps or at least I couldn't seem to find it. I was able to create a new feed Mode output using Danny's example so hopefully that prevents the return from going into fallback the feeder is unavailable. As far as what prompted the reset of the X4, I really wish I knew. I've had this X4 running relatively smoothly for around 3 years now and I've rarely needed to mess with it since I got it all set up. Occasionally after an update the single strip will stop responding and I'll have to go through the replace sequence to get it working again. I barely even remembered how everything was programmed. The auto feeder goes off twice a day and I manually enter feed mode at night when I feed frozen. This Saturday my ATO overrun notification went off so, I went in to check and I saw that all my outputs were red and there was a fallback message on some of them, which I hadn't seen before. I was able reset everything again and now everything except the single strip is communicating with the X4. Not sure if I even want to risk it again trying to fix it tonight... At least the refugium light is on right now.

 

[Tori]

Another update, outputs are off again. Not sure why the WiFi devices would stop communicating with the X4. According to my notifications they stopped responding about an hour before I woke up. At least the ATO and return pump is still on since I addressed the immediate fall back issue. I also noticed my status screen looks a little different than yours. Maybe it's because I never set up a collective. Not even sure that was an option when I first got the controller setup and I haven't updated much since then. Would using the XB8 instead of the WiFi strips completely resolve this issue?

 

[Danny]

You only need to create a collective if you have more than one controller and want them together in that collective so they share inputs and outputs with each other. They will act as one large controller. The controllers communicate with each other over the command bus instead of wifi so if you got the XP8 controller then communication between it and the X4would be on the command bus once you use a command bus cable to connect them together and add 2 terminators on the open command bus ports. You would have to remove the power supply from the X4 since it cannot be used with another source of power on the command but but the XP8 will provide power on the bus and can power several controllers if they do not have their on source of power. If you go with a XP8 create the collective with you existing controller selected so you will keep your current settings and they will transfer to the collective. Then add the XP8 to the collective. since you won't be concerned about the settings getting erased in it. Only the controller you have access to when you first create a collective will keeps it's settings any controller added to the collective after that will get the settings erased but a new controller will not have any settings to erase. You will have to go through the register and wifi setup process with the new controller and also make sure it has up to date firmware before adding it to the collective. Make sure all controllers are powered down when disconnecting and connecting command bus items.

 

[Tori]

Thanks for the advice! Sounds like I'll be going with XB8. Shame I couldn't figure out the WiFi device issues. One thing I'm still a little concerned about is my auto feeder. It's also not responding and I tried unplugging it and plugging it back today but it didn't work like it did yesterday. I'll probably still have to figure out why wifi devices won't communicate to my x4 to some extent. Tried resetting to X4 again today but no changes. I'm actually really surprised the single strip still showed not responding since it let me successfully replace it with itself. Any thoughts on why my WiFi devices all suddenly decided to betray me? Let me know if there are any screens in the app I can show screenshots of that will be helpful. Below shows the current state which it just keeps reverting to since this past Saturday.